" Israel-Palestine Debate | Abby Martin vs Emily Schrader"Will You Give ANY Condemnation Of Hamas?

ared resistance trying to fight for do you think Israel is a terrorist organization genocidal intent this is usually one of the hardest things to prove in a case of genocide not the case in Israel's genocide in Gaza so you're happy to believe those numbers of course I'm happy to those numbers Israel needs to be held accountable and stopped immediately because it's the gravest crime against humanity that a state can commit Israel isn't interested in occupying Gaza in any sort of permanent way that is not something we want I'm not spokesperson well he should be tried at the head and putting the that's a different question I mean he's committing question but you say you can't interfere in Palestinian politics but you're very prepared to interfere in Israel B genocide not a word to be used lightly in recent months a term which means to deliberately kill people from a particular National ethnic group with the aim of destroying said National Group has been leveled to Israel for his treatment of the war in Gaza the Israeli government has repeatedly denounced the accusation despite the icj ruling in January that it was plausible that genocide could be taking place over 32,000 Palestinians mostly children are believed to have been killed since the horrific attack on October the 7th a new report from the United Nations says there are reasonable grounds that Israel has carried out acts of genocide in Gaza this debate will rage on long after this war is over as well whether or not Netanyahu and the Israeli government need to be held to account for their actions strong voices and opinions rage on both sides none more fervent than those of my next two guests I'm I'm joined by the American Israeli commentator Emily Shrader and the journalist and filmmaker Abby Martin but welcome to both of you um Abby Martin let me let me start with you to me genocide would mean the wholesale destruction of a people because of their ethnicity that's how I've always understood genocide to me there is a internationally recognized fivepoint guide to what is genocide it says killing members of the group causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of Life calculated to bring about his physical destruction whole or part imposing measures intended to prevent birst within the group forcibly forci forcibly transferring Children of the group to another group by that definition do you believe that what's happened in Gaza constitutes genocide I do and I think that the fact that this debate is Raging on shows that what Israel is doing is egregious enough the fact that people are actually having a debate on whether or not it is genocide like you said the international court of justice has agreed that there's a plausible case for genocide I think that you just clearly articulated several factors that Israel is in fact carrying out the mental bodily harm and carrying about conditions uh to destroy a group of people clearly the Complete Siege on Gaza the elimination or the prevention rather of water food electricity the prevention of of Aid um widespread preventable illnesses uh killing people now uh we see 2 million people on the brink of starvation clearly these are all intended to destroy a group of people when you compound that with the indiscriminate bombing in the most densely populated places on Earth I would absolutely constitute that as genocidal killing and then peers compound that with the fact that there's genocidal intent this is usually one of the hardest things to prove in a case of genocide not the case in Israel's genocide in Gaza we have five pages just in the icj ruling that clearly lay out the explicit intent to carry out genocide and I'll just point to two uh the Israeli president who said shortly after October 7th that uh no civilian in Gaza is innocent um and that they should have overthrown Hamas and because they didn't they are essentially worth uh you know killing and then you have the defense minister shortly after October 7th that these are human animals and we need to act accordingly as he announced the Complete Siege of Gaza so taking all that into account I would absolutely constitute what is happening is genocide and Israel needs to be held accountable and stopped immediately because it's the gravest crime against humanity that a state can commit okay Emily Trader I mean there's no doubt that if you study the direct quotes from some members of netanyahu's cabinet they are certainly speaking in a genocidal way there's no question there's enough of that being said since October the 7th there's also I actually would dispute that I actually take issue with some of the comments that she made for example when we're talking about human animals it was specific in the context and if you understand Hebrew you know H that the context of this was speaking specifically about Hamas terrorists who I would agree with that description of course not all Palestinians are human animals and Palestinian civilians there are many innocent people however as president Herzog said it is also true that there is a certain degree of complicity with many of the people of Gaza now does that mean that they deserve to die as she stated no of course not but it's not the same thing as being innocent either but that would imply that there are no innocent people in the Palestinian side I don't think that it's true that there's no innocent people I think that there is a certain degree of complicity with many of the population as we see in in the polls according to their polls a Palestinian conducted poll over 70% of the people in Gaza support the actions of October 7th I wish it wasn't the case but Emily you're you're just using that PO you're using that poll to paint all civilians as guilty do you realize that do that deiz stated the opposite I said 70% saying that because said 70% of course there are innocent Palestinians what does that mean what you're rationalizing Collective punishment and starvation of 2 million people 1 million kids that's what you're rationalizing by saying that 7% over 17,000 trucks of humanitarian Aid have entered Gaza some of them that are being stopped right now on the border are actually being prevented from entering by Egypt not by Israel Israel has inspected them and approved them furthermore the reason that Aid isn't being distributed properly isn't because of Israel it's because of Hamas who has been taking the Aid shooting Palestinian civilians inside of Gaza and this is according to Palestinian statements on social media in Arabic who have been speaking about this and then taking that Aid and selling it at double triple quadruple the prices of what would be the regular market for those items so you cannot place this all in Israel but if you say that 70% SEC Abby say 70% of people in Palestine are of this view 50% of that population are under 18 they're children so are you including large numbers of children in your assessment that Palestinians all all believe this way I don't believe that the statistics of that poll how they conducted it included children however I don't know so I would have to investigate that include children then that doesn't include Half the people in Gaza that's according to whose statistics according to the Gaza Ministry of Health which is controlled by half the population because even this 30,000 number is coming from Hamas hang I'm not I I realize that but it hasn't been disputed by other agencies and historically the Hamas uh figures through the Palestinian health authority have been broadly proven to be accurate over time which 30,000 casualties and they're claiming that none of them are comat how is that accurate do even make sense that's not the number I'm talking about the number I'm talking about is if half the population of Gaza is under 18 then saying that 70% of the people in Gaza have a view would have to include a lot of children right and if you don't include the children you don't include Half the population well then you're talking about a narrow number of people comparative sure but you also have to consider the fact that Hamas is actively recruiting and indoctrinating youth with this very extremist jihadist ideology and it's child abuse it's an unfortunate reality that Palestinian children are dealing with why we killing loads why we killing 12 13,000 innocent children whatever the exact number is is Superfluous to the general proportionate effect that so many kids have been killed I don't agree with this these numbers how many you thinked we don't know we do not know at this consider the fact that there are many of them ages of 14 to 17 are members of Hamas seen that proven how many Hamas terrorists have been killed don't know at least 9,000 so happy to believe those numbers how many people believe those numbers you're happy to believe those numbers of course I'm happy to believe those numbers because Israel is a de Democratic country with the rule of law and they hold people accountable when they violate those laws right okay I mean see I I think the problem with questioning the numbers from the Palestinian health authority is that most other agencies independent agencies broadly agree that these numbers are about right and if they're right then 12,000 13,000 children have been killed and I would I would argue that it's very hard to see how the radicalization issue that the Israelis talk about will not be exacerbated by killing 13,000 innocent kids right and can I just address some of the points she made because they're all just egregious lies I mean she's a paid propagandist for the state of Israel I think way being a propagandist em or defending the Chinese Communist Party defending the Chinese Communist Party against crimes people let me speak Emily let me speak you just spoke just flagrant lies for the last minute when I was on this show 10 years ago I was actually speaking out against RT on Russia Today can you say the same I'm a completely independent journalist you are literally a paid propagandist for the Israeli military you just had the audacity to sit down with an Israeli military official the Israeli military and I would be Happ so you just were working for free you literally said that you worked for the ministry of strategic Affairs that you've worked with stand with us which is appendage of the Israeli government let me address the things that you just threw out there which are lies yes of course they received grants from the knesset no they don't em that is Absolut Egypt Israel has look it up on look it up on the internet Emily I'm not sure why you're lying again but this what you guys do deflect you lie nevered funding the is keep speaking over each other the entire time legal then stop lying Abby let me speak stop lying Israel has Israel has has bragged the fact that Egypt just follows their orders okay so we know know that the aid is being prevented not only by fanatical Israelis who are blocking the aid trucks proudly um but from Israel themselves Emily and we know that almost as many civilians have been shot by Israeli forces just trying to scavenge for Aid and food than civilians have died on October 7th this is regular routine massacres routine massacres that are happening of just desperate starving Palestinians that are amassing to seek food is there anything that is more depra than that you can't just keep 7 million pound in one let me try let me try if should be getting in TR per day let me come if I can bring it back to the debate which is about the genocide uh on March the 26 2024 UN Human Rights report called for Israel to be placed under an arms embargo on the grounds it has carried out acts of genocide in Gaza Fran es albanes the UN special reporter on human rights in the Palestinian territory said in her report there were reasonable grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out three of the five acts which I named earlier defined as genocide and she said these were killing Palestinians causing them seriousy bodily or mental harm deliberately inflicting conditions of Life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the population in whole or in part so to that point Emily just forget the ad hominum stuff for a moment on this you've got the UN you've got the icj you've got uh increasingly the Americans actually trying to distance themselves from what's Happening Here a growing sense that there is if not full-blown genocide a version of genocide happening here that meets quite a few criteria I mean I think the definition of genocide requires intent to destroy a nation um and that is not what we're seeing it's not what we've seen since day one you have to remember the fact that this war cabinet minister who actually said he would be happy to drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza that would have been the destruction of plenty of stupid comments from many Israeli politicians that I don't agree with you said earlier that nobody on this is not the we did not start this this is not a war we wanted not a war we started further Isel does have the ability to commit genocide and they are not why would we send 17,000 trck that's such an abuser crazy thing to say you have a gun to the head of Palestinian saying we can commit genocide over each other I want to finish my point about the the cabinet member who said that was quite crystal clear in his genocidal intent he thought it would be fine to drop a bomb a nuclear bomb on Gaza you said earlier that nobody on the cabinet nobody under Netanyahu from the start of his War had ever espoused any genocidal thoughts or statements he did that guy I didn't say that no one in in government has said that I said that the quotes she specifically mentioned are inacurate but what about the guy who got fired specifically for saying about so do you accept there have been people with that mindset on the cabinet I think there are people who have made all kinds of egregious statements on both sides and I can give you a few examples of genocidal intent if you want from the other side because that's really the only side that has proven we can come to that we can come to that but on that point do you accept then that there are people in Israeli government albeit he was fired for it who have espoused genocidal sentiment they have I don't know of anyone who is in the current Israeli government that would support any form of genocide has anyone ever have on both Sid okay Abby five pages yeah five pages of people including social media posts of celebrities including some of the people I know that doesn't that doesn't qualify as a legitimate intent to carry out a genocide they included one from a comedian on there well not to mention the fact that if we talk about the illegitimacy completely decimated every cultural aspect of life in Gaza has been completely obliterated to make it uninhabitable and unsurvivable for future Generations there I mean that is hard to that is hard to argue when you look at what's happened in Northern Gaza particular it's pretty much been leveled I've been there I've seen it with my own eyes why would anyone expect regular Palestinians to be able to go back to homes that don't exist where are they going to go many of them already have started going back and they need to reconstruct Gaza the same way that they needed to reconstruct Gaza after 2021 but they're going to have to do so together with Partners whether it's Israel the United States or other Arab nations in a post Hamas reality and and if we're talking about the problem in in in Gaza and how the Palestinians are suffering you cannot remove Hamas from this equation Hamas is the the group that has been persecuting the Palestinian people as well well that is true Abby I don't think there any question I I don't think there's any question Hamas has been suppressing and oppressing its own people I think that they have become increasingly vocal in their desire to cause maximum damage to Israel and to Jewish people they've said since October the 7th through their official spokesman that they will do this again and again and again that actually is genocidal rhetoric if you're pledging to destroy a people in as many numbers as you can as often as you can that is a form of genocide isn't it look what precipitated even the origin of Hamas Hamas didn't just grow out of thin a I mean it was precipitated by about question Decades of brutal occupation and ethnic cleansing yeah but what about question whether or not Hamas is genocidal as in its intent I disagree and Emily's saying look look Hamas is reacting they're an armed resistance group trying to fight for their I'm Not Jus they've done and the United States also called Nelson Mandela in thec a terrorist organization I to fight for the liberation of Palestine do you think an obligatory do you think Israel is a terrorist organization em do you think Israel is a terrorist organization can you answer my question do you think Hamas is a terrorist organization did I already did let me explain something do you think that the acts committed on October 7th were legitimate you think that gang rape that act that isra hang hang on do you think October let me ask you let me ask you the question which has made me Infamous famous whatever you want to do but do you condemn Hamas for what they did on October the 7th I'm not going to sit here and give an obligatory condemnation of Hamas I will terrorist attack what I think surely on pure Humanity grounds you cannot watch the devastating murder of 1200 people and not say it was a Despicable Terror and condemn the people who did it look look listen I'm not going to give an obligatory condemnation of what I will do is cond that precipitate violence what I will do is condemn the roots of the violence because inevitably you will have blowback when you deny millions of people basic human rights when they are living under brutal medieval Siege and barbaric military occupation a fascist military occupation in the West Bank Hamas doesn't govern the West Bank look at what Israel has done in the West Bank can't condemn Hamas for what they October 7th this is not about Hamas well it's what will be get I'm not going to sit here and condemn Hamas the entire War I'm sorry this entire War has been because of what Hamas did in October the 7th you can go back in history you can go back in history and you can find arguments on both sides in the last 70 years I've had I've had the argument many times canot doing what you're doing is what am I doing what you're doing is conflating and pretending like there are two equal sides oh they has been fighting for decades there's always reasons on both sides to start the violence no that's not true there's one side that's an occupying colonizing force that continuously and violently expels and subjugates and brutalizes and terrorizes the other side they are living under the boot of Israeli authorities whether you're in Gaza and occupied completely militarily by the outside or whether you're living under a fascist military dictatorship in the West Bank so do you if you violence that the root of the violence 75 years ask I hear you let me ask you this if you believe then that Hamas are a armed resistance as you put it and they have presumably then you believe what they did on October the 7th was justified do you I didn't say that no absolutely would not sitting here justifying anything is The Logical extension of your argument if you believe they're an armed resistance and they are they are doing what they're doing because they are responding to acts of Terror by another side surely you would say that what they did was justified or if it's not justified what is it you either condemn it or you think it's Justified I don't think you can sit in the middle can you um I look I don't need to sit here and give a condemnation of Hamas I I I can explain why Hamas exists I don't have to support what they did I don't have to justify or rationalize it in the face as a person who studies history you can sit as a person who studies history Emily Emily you're doing the exact same thing and you're projecting it on me okay so do you condemn the actions of Israel for killing 13,000 children I don't accept that 13,000 children have been killed that hasn't that isn't anything that's verified the problem but it depends on the context of what's Happening do I condemn C Palestinians their reality do I think Israel is always denying Palestinians their reality this is why Palestinians have other do I think everything Israel has done even in this war is correct no there's no problem with saying that what has been wrong what have they done I already said the same thing about Hamas I already said about Hamas Emily tell me what Israel's done that's that's wrong in your eyes I think that that should have been a priority from the beginning uh in order to plan a safe evacuation route before they implemented a military plan I think that everything has been done too late okay Abby what would you say Hamas have done wrong uh I look again I'm not going to sit up here I don't even know really what happened is it to condemn rape you can't find anything anything all the lies that have been perpetrated look Hamas killing civilians I'm sure atrocities were committed on both sides um on October 7th I I'm sure octob 7 at were committ many civilians were killed by isra Emily Emily I can't even hear myself talk because you just can't stop AB speak um there's so many lies that were put out by Israeli authorities that it's really hard to parse through look I mean we don't know how many civilians were killed in the crossfire by Israeli soldiers um and listening to Hannibal directive so look the the mass rapeing babies the The Ripping the babies out of pregnant women's stomachs I mean all of these things are such egregious lies that I really can't sit up here and condemn things that I don't even know what happened what about the atrocities which Hamas recorded and filmed themselves and then posted to the world to brazenly boast about what they were doing what about that look nothing that Hamas did on October 7th compares to what Israel has done in I'm asking you a direct question about the fact that they boasted about the mass Mur just make it all about October 7th and that's what I'm saying it all pales in comparison P that happened I already said I already killing civilians is wrong What kill civilians is wrong so what Hamas did in October 7 was what does that make what is has done H hang on I'm trying to unpick your argument so if it's wrong to kill civilians were Hamas wrong to do what they did in October the 7th given how many civilians were brutally murdered are you doing the same thing to Emily and if not just asking you you think it was wrong why are you not sitting herck is it wrong to kill 13,000 why can't you ask wrong to kill 100 I already said it I already said it I'm not going to sit here you're you're you're you're basically comparing Hamas to Israel I'm not comparing anything you said just now unless unless I'm mistaken you just said to me that the killing of innocent civilians is wrong I then asked you fairly self-evidently I think the question that in that case given that Hamas showed us on tape them killing civilians innocent civilians on October the 7th do you accept that was wrong yes or no you saw you saw the tape yeah they they showed us you saw the tape of them killing innocent civilians yes they literally broadcast it to the world yes we all did and so do Israeli soldiers in a fashion is for it's like watching forget Israel for a moment it's like watching Naz if it's wrong to kill innocent civilians Abby on social media if it's wrong to kill innocent civilians I'll ask you one more time you haven't got to answer up to you but viewers are watching this and they know you haven't answered you think it's wrong to kill innocent civan answered I I I think I think it's wrong to kill innocent civilians so what Hamas did was wrong she's not going to answer well let her answer she wants to last time I'm going to ask you so I don't I I already look I already told you I'm not going to sit here and condemn what Hamas did I understand why I don't have to agree with what Hamas did right to understand wasn't my question I just asked you whether the mass Mur was wrong to understand why blowback for horrific policies of aparte and ethnic cleansing there's obviously inevitably going policies yes absolutely it was back but was it wrong 100% was it wrong I'm not look I I don't know how how much you want to just go around the mulberry bush like this it's a fairly straightforward question I don't see how anyone can come isra is doing how can you take debate like this and say innocent civilians is WR not going to tell you what heras did October 7th was wrong it makes no sense Abby no sense I'm not going to sit here and condemn Hamas I'm not going to do the obligatory ritual ritual that everyone is browbeaten into doing I'm just not going to do it per I doing right now is your denial I think your denial that what they did was a heinous act of terrorism is actually in its way as bad I'm about to finish my sentence I said atrocities were Comm and I thinkes are wrong and killing innocent civilians are wrong so Hamas were wrong to do it you're brow beating me into trying to just ask you for a straightforward answer this was a horrific terrorist attack I I already answered you I think your failure to say that Hamas did something wrong is terrible I think Emily's failure to accept that 12 13,000 children have been killed is he also terrible right I think that the denial going on on both sides here which I hear is frankly appalling not denying I'm saying that we don't have the evidence yet of what the numbers are and we don't know what the break it is we don't know yet you also have to remember the fact that what as I said to you Emily the Palestinian health authority numbers historically have turned out to be proven to be pretty accur Authority the Ministry of Health has been instructed explicitly by not to report combatants the numbers are not accurate and they cannot be trusted Point as I've just said to you historically if you go and check historically the Palestinian health authority run by Hamas their numbers have turned out to be broadly accurate that is why they are being treated now as reasonably accurate numbers there can be no doubt from the footage we've seen from the hospitals of endless children from the bomb sites endless children being killed that there are thousands of children being killed to try and deny that to try and I'm not denying that children are being killed I'm not denying that you don't believe the Specialties we don't know the numbers yet and we cannot state definitively especially if the source is Hamas that 13,000 children have been killed you have actually no idea that 9,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed according to IDF intelligence yeah we do so you believe IDF intelligence but you won't believe terorist organization absolutely I would believe the IDF over a us and UK design even been proven even if other independent agencies who corroborated the Palestinian health authority numbers you what independent agencies the United Nations yeah this is not independent as has been proven by this war itself members of unra are actually active terrorists some of them took part in the October 7th Massacre see here's my problem with this debate no evidence here's my problem with the debate for both of you there is a level of denial on both sides which I think people in the middle who don't have a horse in the race right who are looking at this from afar they're a gas at the level of self-denial they cannot believe Abby that you're not prepared to say what Hamas did was wrong and they cannot believe uh Emily that on your side you simply won't accept the obvious fact num of H thousands and thousands of children are being I I didn't say that thousands of people are dying do not know the numbers and no I'm not going to accept the numbers from Hamas right so you don't have to then be accountable for the deaths of so many children I I don't know what the number is therefore I can't come I don't agree with that I think Israel needs to exercise as much caution as possible they kill fewer children if possible of course yeah of course do you accept they've killed too many children how would you don't think that yes first of all but I also well that's but I also think it's many of these casualties are result of being used as human shield actually what you just said an important adiss hang on hang on AB I'm going to come to you but that's an important admission actually by Emily that she thinks Israel has killed too many children I think that is a healthy moment children should be killed fine you just said you think they're killing too many children one is too many fine but it's not laughable is it uh it's terrible right so I I just think that until you can admit on both sides what's actually going on that we can all see with our own eyes uh I think you don't get anywhere with this debate let me ask you this we talk about genocide and we talk about how this all uh plays out at the end how does this end Abby I mean how do you actually get peace when we can't even have a debate without people screaming at each other uh but we now know that a lot of Gaz has been leveled I don't know if they can go back and live there gazin I don't know how many more are going to get killed if Israel attacks the the Rafa ref refugee camp in his efforts to to finish off a mass I don't know these answers what I do know is I find it very very implausible that at the end of this it simply all gets sorted out quite quickly and the Garin go back to their destroyed homes it all gets rebuilt and they'll live happily ever after so how does it end right I mean well no construction material has been allowed in for quite some time so there is no rebuilding effort that's possible especially when you've decimated the entire strip demolished every aspect of civilian life surgically striking doctors alongside their entire families killing over journalists many and targeted assassinations alongside their entire families I mean really the best and brightest in Palestinian Society in Gaza has been destroyed IDF soldiers posting on Tic Tac that they're just blowing up mosques because they're bored looting and pillaging women's lerie I mean it really is depraved levels of sadism going on here how does it end a negotiated settl immediately um I think that what Hamas is offering is not Beyond The Pale it would be easy for Israel to comply with the demands if we look at the five-day truce that happened several months back uh the Palestinian hostages that Israel's been keeping they're not called hostages but they should be because they're just political prisoners that are languishing in military detention the vast majority of those political prisoners were not charged with anything um 30 of them were kids for throwing stones so this is this is the kind of thing that we're talking about when Hamas says release our hostages that's who they're talking about um when they say the removal of Israeli troops from Gaza I don't see how that couldn't be complied with I mean look there should be a negotiated settlement if you want the hostages back today that could happen and that's why there's thousands of Israelis protesting in the stre well H have just rejected the latest uh peace deal offering well okay is it a permanent ceasefire because if you're just talking about a six week ceasefire well then well then yeah I mean Israel is saying they're just going to continue the genocide after six weeks how is that um something let me ask before we go back to em let me ask you this Abby do you think hamash should stay in power at the end of this look I'm I'm whatever the Palestinians want that's do that's what they will do I mean I think look I'm not going to say I'm not going to speak on behalf the Palestinians of who their leadership should be what I will say is Hamas isn't actually the most popular faction in Palestinians and Hamas is only the result of Israeli policy of brutal aparte ethnic cleansing and occupation that's why Hamas exists any type of Palestinian leadership that has arisen is a direct result of Israeli brutality so I'm not going to speak on behalf of Palestinians and say what should or should not happen or who they should and should not elect but I will say that Hamas is a democratically elected leadership of the Gaza Strip I understand um let me ask you one more question inevitably should Poli maintain in place should Netanyahu remain in power in Israel after this no hang on I think that the Israeli people have spoken about Netanyahu but I think that Netanyahu is the tip of the iceberg to blame this all on Netanyahu and his so-called right should stay in power Foundation of what Israel is should he should he stay in power after this no he's committing genocide no so you're prepared to say to the Israeli people no your leaders should go you're not prepared to tell Inc the Israeli people are out in the streets and the tens of thousands saying Netanyahu should go there are many Palestinians who want Hass to go too I'm sure the point is you made B deal election you made a big deal election you made a big deal of saying it's not down to me to tell Palestinian people about their leadership and then you immediately I give you the the open door on nety yeah absolutely you should go totally inconsistent well he should be tried at the heg and put in the heg that's a different question I mean he's committing question you say you can't interfere in Palestinian politics but you're very prepared to interfere in Israeli politics let me ask you Emily well because he's committing genocide he's committing genocide and he should be tried and thrown in a prison it's a matter of international cours Emily that's what international court right that's what international none of them actually spelled out Crystal clearly it is genocide it is moving that way I have to say uh Emily let me ask you the same question how does this end I mean I think that Israel as well as Palestinian leadership needs to work together with other partners especially in the Arab world to help rebuild Gaza Israel isn't interested in occupying Gaza in any sort of permanent way that is not something we want we withdrew from that territory we do not want it um and I would like to see Palestinians be able to return to their home safely and elect some form of government or leadership that is able to actually Implement one day in the future some sort of peace process and I think that involves working together with Community leaders who are on the ground that are not aili with Hamas did you accept that anything going forward which looks like a peace deal would be a two-state solution and that Palestine in that respect would be an identifiable State confirmed by Israel and that they would no longer be dependent on Israel for the flow of food and water and fuel and all the other things which Israel has had some control over now for decades um in the long term of course yeah I I do think that there needs to be some sort of solution the problem that we're facing today I believe is actually the radicalization element within Palestinian Society because Palestinian leaders don't have a mandate to lead not Hamas and not mahmur Abbas and we don't have a leadership that's able to implement any kind of peace deal in any borders and when we have that I don't think netanyahu's had any interest in a peace deal either I think he's been quite happy watching Hamas and the Palestinian Authority at each other's throats uh since the early 2000s I don't think he's ever shown any real desire to find peace that's why I think spokes I personally think I personally think both Israel and the Palestinians they they both need new leadership that actually wants to F to forge genuine peace in a two-state solution which offers security and safety to both sides and maybe it will take time but you know what I remember I remember in Northern Ireland people saying it was equally intractable and they eventually got there you just need new leadership that knows what it's doing who can actually believe in the concept of peace we got to leave it there Abby Martin Emily Shader thank you for a spirited debate I appreciate it very much indeed thanks